Wiki Elimination of “A” Designation: The Apprentice designation is not needed anymore

an encouraging thread in the midst of it all

Robin, thanks for posting this day-brightener to many CPA-s who may be following this thread. Not only that, but would have loved to see the look on her face as well. Who knows? Perhaps this same employee is numbered amongst us who read the forums regularly! That must have given you immense satisfaction to bring tidings of good news!

---Suzanne E. Byrum CPC
 
signature for CPC A removal.

I too am an "Apprentice", for sake of a better term. I graduated from a one year AAPC accredited school with coding occurring throughout the course of the class. I have been with a billing and coding company for 21 months, of which, 14 of them have been in the coding department. My supervisor will not approve a letter from corporate for me, beacuse I do not code 'all' of the types of ASC cases that we code for.
I was trained on how to properly look for and code for ANY type scenerio. I have a "A" hanging over my head, and with the limited range of coding that I am doing, I am not certain that my employer would give me a good reccomendation should I choose to apply elsewhere as a coder. It is frustrating to have to jump through so many hoops, when dependant upon your state, the carrier, and the contract, coding will NEVER be the same from one local to the next. That is why we must continue with our CEU's and the "A" should not exist.
I understand if your employer places restraints on your coding until such a time that he/she feels confident with your abilities as a coder, but what employer doesn't do that anyway, no matter what job your have? And I too have 25+ years experience in the healthcare field and found that this test was challening, but rewarding. I had one hour remaining when I completed my exam, and passed with an 83%, so WHY do I have to sit with an "A", when I can obviously code?

I work with two coders whom I encouraged to join the AAPC and take the CPC exam. I'm just their cowoeker and I wrote both their letters to have the A taken off their credentials. You do not necessary need it to come from your boss. As for college coding, you can get your teacher to write a letter explaining what you have been doing for the time you were in school. It was not hard for me to get the A removed. I was lucky to have the letters from college and my current employer. I do understand that I'm lucky to be employeed and coding. Don't give up on your dreams.
 
We have the ability to affect the outcome!!!!

Dear Coding Community and Fellow CPC-As,

I have been following this thread daily with earnest interest. I actually read this thread before reading the article on page 7 in the January Coding Edge issue. If you haven't read the article for yourself, I highly recommend you read it in its entirety first. Quite a few things were said and I am a CPC-A that could be affected by the resulting changes of this proposal.

After reading the article for myself, I discovered two things.

1st)- The very fact the AAPC is taking steps to potentially help the current CPC-A situation shows that we are a part of a great organization who is concerned about its members. REALLY. They are not unaware of the trials we are facing as a CPC-As and are looking for a way to change it.

2nd)- The very last paragraph of the article by Reed Pew states,
“ As stated above, we would appreciate comments to this important change to our credentialing program THROUGH JAN. 31, 2012. You may go to www.aapc.com/cpc-acomment to submit your comment. From those comments we will either proceed ahead, make modifications that strengthen the change, or slow down the change due to legitimate concerns that AAPC has not properly considered. Your friend, Reed E. Pew”

If that doesn't show we are part of a great organization, then I don't know what does. We have an opportunity to change the outcome of this proposal. It is not written in stone yet, it is written in pencil and open for modifications which is GREAT news to me. To all my CPC-As out there, we still have time to affect the outcome of this situation. We have until Jan 31, 2012 to submit legitimate concerns regarding this issue. We have the ability to make modifications, or slow down the change based on the feedback WE provide. Quite frankly, a lot of people have expressed legitimate concerns regarding this matter on this thread, but if they remain only on this thread, it will do no good in voicing your concerns.

Today, it is January 8, 2012. We have until January 31, 2012 which is approximately 24 days from today. I encourage EVERYONE who has posted a comment regarding this issue on this thread to send your comment to the comment link. I encourage EVERYONE who has read this thread and thought about posting a comment on this thread will do so at the appropriate link BEFORE JANUARY 31, 2012. I definitely have a strong opinion on this matter, but will send it to the comment link because that is where it will count.

I love the AAPC! I wouldn't trade my credentials for anything in the world because I worked my you know what off to get them! And I know I am not the only one who has made great sacrifices and invested a small fortune in obtaining and maintaining these precious credentials. I encourage every CPC-A to not throw that away and don't throw in the towel now. Especially since collectively WE have an opportunity to affect the outcome of this proposed change.

Honk if you love the AAPC. HOOOOOOOOONK!! Thank you to Reed Pew for even allowing us an opportunity to voice our concerns and thank you for taking our feedback into consideration. Have a happy day everyone! :rolleyes:

 
I think there is something dishonest here. I have a bachelor's degree, and have worked in a hospital setting for over 20 years. I took the online CPC course, passed the CPC exam the first time but was not issued a completion certificate due to a " technicality" and now, 3 years later, am working 4 hours per week " coding" on a very limited basis because I am still an " apprentice." I am several thousand dollars " in the red" due to renewal fees for my " credential" , seminar fees, the cost of the course that I was never given credit for, plus books, etc. Now I have to come up with another $1000 for ICD-10 bootcamp plus new books, etc. I think if you already have a credential such as M.D., MBA, R.N. then the CPC is just the icing on the cake and you are given easier certification and rights to publishing articles in the Coding Edge or speaking at a seminar with an excellent salary. Otherwise, if you just want to advance your current position or even obtain a coding position, it is short of impossible. I am very disillusioned with the coding world. I initially wanted to make a difference and bring honesty and integrity into the coding profession. But it is virtually impossible to break into unless you already have a coding job and then go to get certified or you are already an R.N. or M.D. or have your MBA. I am just glad that I didn't resign from my current evening job as a transcriptionist because if I had resigned to obtain a coding position I would be jobless. This AAPC progran is very deceiving and I am looking to possibly file a complaint against this company. I think AAPC is very biased and not very fair. I am wondering if there is going to be an ICD-10-A after passing my exam which will be another "technicality" which will prevent me from qualifying me for a coding position. And by reading the other comments that other "apprentices" have posted, I am seriously considering "throwing in the towel." I hope that my opininion as well as the opinions of others are read and considered by the AAPC. I have spoken with several coders who are certified from several years back and they never had to obtain years of experience or obtain references or take additional exams. Once they passed the 5 1/2 hour coding exam, they were certified. Period. When did these "apprentice" requirements begin? I feel this is unfair and biased and it also provides extra income for AAPC looking at all of the apprentices in the publication of AAPC Coding Edge each month. I hope that these comments are read and considered.

From CPC-A 01092997
 
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I'm sorry you feel that the AAPC is unfair. However as for previous coders not having to have experience, you are wrong. When I became certified in 2000 you had to have two years of experience and two letters of recommendation before you could even take the CPC exam. When you took the exam you only had 5 hours (not the 5 hrs & 40 minutes that is now allowed), there were three separate sections and you had to have a grade of 70% on EACH section to pass. If you got below a 70 on even ONE section you failed the entire exam and had to retake it. There were no "schools" you could go to the courses were offered by AAPC (the PMCC) and coding was not really considered a "career choice". You were haned coding books and learned on the job.

Prior to 1988 the AAPC didn't even exist, the only credentialing body was AHIIMA (they offered the RRA and ART credentials which now are called RHIA and RHIT) and you were required to go to an accredited school before you you could take their exams. AHIMA at that time was only for hospital based coders. If you read the history of AAPC they were founded in 1988 to promote professionalism among physician based coders. It has taken a long time for AAPc to gain the recognition it has. I remember in the early 90's asking the physician I worked for if I should become certified and her response was "why would anybody need a certified coder?"

Fast forward to today, the AAPC and CPCs are now recognized as Professionals with high standards. Many of todays CPCs have been coding for a long time and we have worked hard to bring our profession to the spotlight. Employers want experienced coders because they know that we (whether we've chosen to become certified or not) have fought the good fight and we by necessity have kept up with ever changing rules and regulations. Are there older coders who don't really have a clue? Yes, just as in every profession you have some who do not keep up and some who don't really care as long they get a paycheck. But the majority of coders with experience have been where you are and started in the trenches. I started as a "float clerk" which means I did all the jobs know one else wanted to do. The biggest problem I've seen on this and other posts is that MANY (not all but many) new coders want to start with their dream job. The advise I see experienced coders giving over and over is to take any job you can, it could be front desk, it could be file clerk, it could be answering phones, take it, prove you want to work and learn and see what happens. The other thing I've seen on this post is that the 800 chart coding was taken down because of complaints that the records were to hard to code. What do you think the real world of coding is like? The answers are NOT given to you and sometimes you have to do a LOT of research and sometimes you even get it wrong and have to make corrections. So whoever was complaining about it being too hard didn't do anyone any favors. As far as ICD-10, we are all in the same boat with learning something new, I see it as an opportunity to enhance my skills and become more knowledgeable in my field. I actually fell into this field quite by accident, but I love what I do and I think that whatever AAPC has to do to keep the integrity of our credentials high then they should do it.

The last thing I would like to say is this, AAPC has grown from under 80,000 member a couple of years ago to over 111,000 now. While growth is good, does anyone really think that over 31,000 new jobs have been created in this field during this time? The answer is a resounding NO! Hospital and practices have closed and companies have downsized and merged so there are actually fewer jobs available now.

Doreen Clark, CPC, CPMA
 
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I had the great privilege yesterday of calling a CPC-A into my office and watching the excitement on her face as I offered her a coding position. I hired this person only one month ago into an entry level position which she was eager to accept. After only a few weeks of recognizing her positive attitude, eagerness to learn, dependability and work ethic, I was thrilled to be able to place her into the position she had hoped she would eventually move into. I will reiterate what so many have said in this thread. Keep a positive attitude, be willing to accept an entry level position and then show your employer you possess all of the above mentioned traits. All of the "seasoned" coders can repeat stories of starting at the bottom up. And we will all tell you that no matter how many years of experience we have, we continue to be challenged and to learn on a daily basis. The AAPC certainly has the best interest of its members at heart. We all need to remember that they have the incredible responsibility of maintaining the integrity of our professional organization so our credentials continue to be worth all the effort each of us put into obtaining them.


Way to go Robin!!!! It's very refreshing to hear these types of stories and it just goes to show, it is possible....
 
Well stated Doreen.

Obviously the stress and frustration of finding a job in this horrible job-loss economy is taking a toll.

From my perspective (and in my opinion) the AAPC started out trying to give professionalism to the physician-based coder. Then it saw a mass explosion and the AAPC wanted the cake and wanted to eat it too. So to give those that wanted to be coders it instituted the apprentice program. Then they made the exam easier, (heck I took it only 5 years ago and then it had ten sections and you had to pass each section or fail the entire exam, like Doreen stated), because people cried "it's too hard" and the AAPC got a little greedy and made it easier so they could have more members.

But then "career colleges" started to produce too many "coders" using the old "have a better and easier life" and "code from home" and people saw and heard life would be easier and I'd get paid better and they had dreams of grandeur.

And now, because the market is glutted and there are no jobs, people are crying out, blaming the AAPC for wanting to get back to it's roots and be a homing point for professional coders because it wants to make the certification mean something.

How's that bachelors doing for you? Wait, was it a waste of money and time getting it? (Not trying to pinpoint you shakira, many have said "I have a degree in this thread"). Isn't your degree helping you get a position now?

How about we go be doctors? They have to go to school for 8+ years and then residency and all that junk. Just to get their "certification" (license). You think this one little change (which may or may not happen based on people letting the AAPC hear from them) is tough? Try being that doctor and all the changes they have to keep up with or lose credentialling and possibly their license.

Things change and companies have to change to. If the AAPC doesn't do something to make our certification truly mean something, then our cert will be worth less than the paper it's printed on.

So while I'm sorry for those that don't have a coding position, or are finding it hard to get a paid internship or think the exam is too hard or too long, I'm not sorry the AAPC is doing something to make my certification (and others) mean something. And believe me I know how tough it is. I have three kids, my wife doesn't work and I make well under 40K.

On the flip side of the argument though is those that have been through the ringer and are "apprentices".

How about I cry out about icd-10 and the AAPC making me take a new exam by a certain date and if I don't pass it by that date I lose my certification entirely and have to start over?

I didn't "sign up" for that back in 2006!! lol, just kidding.

I embrace these changes to better myself and my fellow coders.

The AAPC is just changing with the times and the evolving requirements.
 
I think there is something dishonest here. I have a bachelor's degree, and have worked in a hospital setting for over 20 years. I took the online CPC course, passed the CPC exam the first time but was not issued a completion certificate due to a " technicality" and now, 3 years later, am working 4 hours per week " coding" on a very limited basis because I am still an " apprentice." I am several thousand dollars " in the red" due to renewal fees for my " credential" , seminar fees, the cost of the course that I was never given credit for, plus books, etc. Now I have to come up with another $1000 for ICD-10 bootcamp plus new books, etc. I think if you already have a credential such as M.D., MBA, R.N. then the CPC is just the icing on the cake and you are given easier certification and rights to publishing articles in the Coding Edge or speaking at a seminar with an excellent salary. Otherwise, if you just want to advance your current position or even obtain a coding position, it is short of impossible. I am very disillusioned with the coding world. I initially wanted to make a difference and bring honesty and integrity into the coding profession. But it is virtually impossible to break into unless you already have a coding job and then go to get certified or you are already an R.N. or M.D. or have your MBA. I am just glad that I didn't resign from my current evening job as a transcriptionist because if I had resigned to obtain a coding position I would be jobless. This AAPC progran is very deceiving and I am looking to possibly file a complaint against this company. I think AAPC is very biased and not very fair. I am wondering if there is going to be an ICD-10-A after passing my exam which will be another "technicality" which will prevent me from qualifying me for a coding position. And by reading the other comments that other "apprentices" have posted, I am seriously considering "throwing in the towel." I hope that my opininion as well as the opinions of others are read and considered by the AAPC. I have spoken with several coders who are certified from several years back and they never had to obtain years of experience or obtain references or take additional exams. Once they passed the 5 1/2 hour coding exam, they were certified. Period. When did these "apprentice" requirements begin? I feel this is unfair and biased and it also provides extra income for AAPC looking at all of the apprentices in the publication of AAPC Coding Edge each month. I hope that these comments are read and considered.

From CPC-A 01092997
I am not sure what your complaint is exactly. I have had my certification for a long time now, since about 1999 I believe or it may have been before that, I have a Masters degree in Public Health and over 20 years of experience. I am not sure what the technicality is that has kept the A on your certification. Back when I became certified you had to apply to take the test, you had to submit your resume and have 2 or 3 letters of recommendation then the board decided if you had the necessary background to take the test, if not you had to work longer in the field or take some additional classes. I know people that were turned down to take the test. If you have 20 years experience and a degree that is relevant to the field then I am not sure why the A but if you talked to the AAPC whatever the technicality is it could be worked out. BUT ... do not blame the AAPC because you cannot get a job. You have experience and degree and the certification with or without the A, so there is nothing stopping you except you!
You do not have to spend money taking an ICD-10 CM class, you can learn this without classes, you just have take the time to figure it out, again the only thing stopping you is you. I do get weary of people pointing fingers at the AAPC everytime they do not get a job.. and to say there is something dishonest????? really! This is a fine upstanding organization and in my opinion you have insulted them greatly. I am ashamed of you.
 
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I think there is something dishonest here. I have a bachelor's degree, and have worked in a hospital setting for over 20 years. I took the online CPC course, passed the CPC exam the first time but was not issued a completion certificate due to a " technicality" and now, 3 years later, am working 4 hours per week " coding" on a very limited basis because I am still an " apprentice." I am several thousand dollars " in the red" due to renewal fees for my " credential" , seminar fees, the cost of the course that I was never given credit for, plus books, etc. Now I have to come up with another $1000 for ICD-10 bootcamp plus new books, etc. I think if you already have a credential such as M.D., MBA, R.N. then the CPC is just the icing on the cake and you are given easier certification and rights to publishing articles in the Coding Edge or speaking at a seminar with an excellent salary. Otherwise, if you just want to advance your current position or even obtain a coding position, it is short of impossible. I am very disillusioned with the coding world. I initially wanted to make a difference and bring honesty and integrity into the coding profession. But it is virtually impossible to break into unless you already have a coding job and then go to get certified or you are already an R.N. or M.D. or have your MBA. I am just glad that I didn't resign from my current evening job as a transcriptionist because if I had resigned to obtain a coding position I would be jobless. This AAPC progran is very deceiving and I am looking to possibly file a complaint against this company. I think AAPC is very biased and not very fair. I am wondering if there is going to be an ICD-10-A after passing my exam which will be another "technicality" which will prevent me from qualifying me for a coding position. And by reading the other comments that other "apprentices" have posted, I am seriously considering "throwing in the towel." I hope that my opininion as well as the opinions of others are read and considered by the AAPC. I have spoken with several coders who are certified from several years back and they never had to obtain years of experience or obtain references or take additional exams. Once they passed the 5 1/2 hour coding exam, they were certified. Period. When did these "apprentice" requirements begin? I feel this is unfair and biased and it also provides extra income for AAPC looking at all of the apprentices in the publication of AAPC Coding Edge each month. I hope that these comments are read and considered.

From CPC-A 01092997

While I personally do not think an additional test would help someone with no experience get a job as a coder I DO NOT think the AAPC engages in fraudulant practices.
I went into this with absolutely NO experience in the medical field whatsoever. No "friends" in the industry to pave my way AND no other degree of any sort. I spent a year in a community college taking Medical Billing and Coding, Transcription, and Medical Terminology. I sat for the test three months after my classes ended and passed on the first try. I was awarded a CPC-A. Three months later I was hired as a coder in a local surgical practice. A year later the executive office manager wrote a brief letter stating that I had been coding for a year and my -A was dropped.
Prior to the -A designation a person had meet certain criteria before they could even take the test so the people you have spoken to did not give you all of the honest details.
Have you called the AAPC and discussed your issue? I have always found their employees to be friendly and helpful. No one involved with the organization,in my opinion, would purposefully deny you anything you were entitled to. Of course without any knowledge of your extenuating circumstances I can't really offer any concrete advice.
 
Looking at this from a distance...

The thing to remember, my fellow apprentices, is we don't really need the CPC or CPC-A credential to eventually succeed in coding. Nice to have, but not a necessity. My school had a strange obsession with the CPC exam. They promoted it every chance they got and rarely discussed AHIMA and other options. It was like the Holy Grail of coding. Must. Have. CPC.!!!!! Must. Join. AAPC!!!! I must have been brainwashed.

In my area, I've only seen one job ad asking for a CPC and that was for a billing only (not coding) position. They wanted someone, they said, who "understood coding" but would not be doing coding. I've never seen an ad for a CPC-A. Most jobs have no requirement for a credential and the handful that do, require the CCS. The working coders I know do not have credentials and look amused when I mention mine. Just like the "overly optimistic exaggerations" we heard from the schools about the coding job market, the need for a CPC-A or CPC also seems to have been exaggerated as well.

So why the heck our we stressing ourselves over (and spending money on) something that is apparently not important???

I am not bitter. I am not angry. Frustrated? a bit. Mostly I am bemused at myself. If anyone else came to me for advice about what to do in this situation, I'd tell them to cut their losses with the AAPC, concentrate on learning ICD-10, maintain their CCA (I have one) and move on. But there was something so grueling about studying for and taking that exam, that I would rather crawl through hot coals and a pit of rattlesnakes than give it up. LOL I do, however, believe I'll get over this obsession. When I do a cost/benefit analysis of my AAPC credential and membership, the costs clearly outweigh the benefits.

So I am grateful the APPC put this in the January magazine since my membership is up for renewal in February. I was already leaning towards leaving, this made it easier to do.
 
The thing to remember, my fellow apprentices, is we don't really need the CPC or CPC-A credential to eventually succeed in coding. Nice to have, but not a necessity. My school had a strange obsession with the CPC exam. They promoted it every chance they got and rarely discussed AHIMA and other options. It was like the Holy Grail of coding. Must. Have. CPC.!!!!! Must. Join. AAPC!!!! I must have been brainwashed.

In my area, I've only seen one job ad asking for a CPC and that was for a billing only (not coding) position. They wanted someone, they said, who "understood coding" but would not be doing coding. I've never seen an ad for a CPC-A. Most jobs have no requirement for a credential and the handful that do, require the CCS. The working coders I know do not have credentials and look amused when I mention mine. Just like the "overly optimistic exaggerations" we heard from the schools about the coding job market, the need for a CPC-A or CPC also seems to have been exaggerated as well.

So why the heck our we stressing ourselves over (and spending money on) something that is apparently not important???

I am not bitter. I am not angry. Frustrated? a bit. Mostly I am bemused at myself. If anyone else came to me for advice about what to do in this situation, I'd tell them to cut their losses with the AAPC, concentrate on learning ICD-10, maintain their CCA (I have one) and move on. But there was something so grueling about studying for and taking that exam, that I would rather crawl through hot coals and a pit of rattlesnakes than give it up. LOL I do, however, believe I'll get over this obsession. When I do a cost/benefit analysis of my AAPC credential and membership, the costs clearly outweigh the benefits.

So I am grateful the APPC put this in the January magazine since my membership is up for renewal in February. I was already leaning towards leaving, this made it easier to do.

And it does depend on the area you live in. Where I live a credential, either CPC or CCS-P, is essential if you want a job in coding. Of course there are still people out there working in coding that have been doing it a long time that are not certified.

What may happen is, as the long time non-certified coders retire or leave their jobs, the move will be for the new hires to be certified. Also, all the mergers of smaller physician practices into larger medical corporations are going to push non-certified coders out the door. I have seen it happen. Some folks are getting certified with both AHIMA and AAPC, some are choosing one or the other. AHIMA is a great place for those who want to get into hospital and facility coding as well as HIM stuff. The advent of ICD-10 and the move to EHR are both going to impact medical coding in a big way.

There is a saturated market right now, I hope that changes in the certification and membership system will help to re-define things for coders. I have been doing this for a long time and figure it will be the career I retire from in about 15 years!
 
Members,

Many of you bring forth valid issues and concern and we value each of them. So that your voice may be heard, the AAPC generously granted a comment period on this issue, something that has never been done before in this organization.

Please don't discard this opportunity to be heard. I encourge each of you to post your comments and concerns on the site provided and where each will be reviewed and possible alternatives offered may be considered.

www.aapc.com/CPC-acomment

Cyndi Stewart, CPC, CPMA, CPC-H, CPC-I
President, National Advisory Board of the AAPC
 
Virtual Experience: Apprentice Removal Program

I am also one of the CPC-"A"s still in the process of testing in the Virtual Experience: Apprentice removal program (800 operative and office notes from 17 different specialities). I have been waiting for over a year to finish the testing program as last summer the program was put on hold for re-vamping. At that time I had completed close to 600 cases. I have since done the "Beta Testing" and am now waiting for the final version of the testing program so I can finish & get rid of the dreaded "A". I don't see how AAPC can drop this program as they need to up-hold their standards as a professional organization. I feel they will follow through.
No learning is wasted and I have enjoyed coding these notes but I guess I have to say I feel cheated if coding 20 notes in an exam to remove the "A" instead of the 800 we have been working on, seems unfair. That said; for my next job interview I will challenge HR to give me a coding test containing samples of their OP notes and office visits as I feel I'm up to it. I have learned so much doing this online program.
If this goes forward as now being considered, I hope AAPC will acknowledge in a meaningfull way, the effort and time those of doing the Virtual Experience: Apprentice Removal program have put in.
L. Hendrickson CPC-"A"
I'm a CPC-A and I am quite unsure of what I now may need to do to get the"A" lifted from my credential. I have a particular concern with this change because I actually did sign up and work through, all but about 100 of the 800, doctor notes for the Online Apprentice Removal Program this past summer when the site went down and I was not able to complete it. I am sure there are some of you who have read some of my posts since this all went down, and you are probably tired of hearing about it, but let me just share my story once more...

I decided last summer to take some time off from a job I had as a Medical Assistant, which I had worked for 14 months. I thought this was going to be my "foot-in-the-door", but it was clear it was not going to happen with this practice due to nature of it being a small practice( one doctor), no room to move up. Anyway, I decided to leave the practice-due to other unfortunate reasons as well, to per sue the Online Apprentice Program. I dedicated my ENTIRE summer to try and finish this with the hopes of finishing by fall, so I could get back to work with this experience behind me. I literally worked all day, and night, every single day this past summer (from 8:00 am to at least 10:00 pm). Unfortunately, the site went down when I had about 100 to do in order to finish. This was in Aug/Sept, and I have been patiently waiting for the site to come back up so I could finish. I even participated in helping with providing feedback to the AAPC during this time. I want to say that having nearly finished this program, it was very exhausting and every bit as grueling as the CPC exam. I feel I have worked extremely hard, and dedicated a large amount of time working on this progam, only to possibly have it no longer be available as an option for removing my "A" status. I signed up for this program because it allowed me to do it on my own time, at my own pace, and from home. I think the idea of this program was a good one in that it teaches you not just what to code, but if you submit incorrectly, to do some research to find the correct codes, and understand why you may have an incorrect code. I think a coder gets a better understanding of the process as a whole. If you sit for a test consisting of only 20 notes, and have a time limit how is this considered an apprentice program where a new coder is being prepared for real world? Everyone needs to be trained for any job, and there aren't many employers willing to train a coder, so I think an apprentice program should be an option to train and further teach a new coder to prepare them for the real world. New coders still need experience to get a job, they cannot get a job and then sit for the test, because they won't be hired without the credential either. And it is another, additional expense.

All this being said, there definately needs to be a change on how new coders can obtain the experience, and the credential, to help them gain the employment. But from my point of view, I am very upset about how this is potentially going to affect me. I have spent a large amount of time, AND money persuing this credential/education. I am beginning to feel I have wasted alot of my time, money, AND energy trying to obtain this credential. Maybe I should go back to Accounting, where I DO have the experience, in addition to a degree from a state college. I love the medical feild and I have the compassion for this line of work, and I thought I had found where I belonged, but I have to say this has been a dissapointing experience. I hope those at the AAPC will read my post and try to help me understand what exactly MY options are now....?
 
Todays it's an Employer's Market

I've read many posts from many threads (not just AAPC) that are from one end of the spectrum: those who have coding experience and a credential yet still can't get a job, to reading posts on the other end of the spectrum: those who don't have coding experience and/or a credential yet still can't even get a non-coding related job just to get their foot in the door. :mad:

In my opinion, I can summarize that it all boils down to the “employer”.
Due to the current economy, and other factors, this industry is the “employer's market”, and they have the upper hand and know it. So good networking these days seems to trump experience and education and credentials. :rolleyes:

Since there is such a saturation of those who want to get involved in coding, the employers are raising the bar and are going to be a lot more selective then before about whom they hire because they can. The requirements, for a particular position 10 years ago, have more likely been increased. What you currently have to bring to the table may have been considered ‘overqualified' many years ago, but now you are considered ‘underqualified'. :eek:

I don't believe you can really point the finger at anyone in particular, it's just the nature of the business ‘beast' for now, and I'm sure there have been other types of industries that have gone through a similar situation.

I too am anxious to see what changes ICD10 and EHR, EMR, etc. will have in the medical coding industry the next couple of years. It seems the best thing to do for now is to get very familiar with ICD10 and continue to network best you can through ALL avenues. ;)
 
It has been my experience through 6 years of Teaching (as a licensed PMCC Instructor) and an Employer of CPC's for the past 26 years that passing the CPC exam is indicative of the knowledge base of the individual. Most coders have limited experience in 1 specialty or limited to billing. I have had many "fresh" Coder's who I would hire before someone who is "self taught". Needless to say, having an individual take another exam, in my mind, is punishing the eager individual who has earned the CPC designation just as much as the "experienced coder". I have many "experienced coders" who cannot pass the CPC exam....The exam is the same for everyone therefore the earned designation should be the same. A person's resume details their experience....NO other certification or organization adds a designation to "taint" an individual.
 
It has been my experience through 6 years of Teaching (as a licensed PMCC Instructor) and an Employer of CPC's for the past 26 years that passing the CPC exam is indicative of the knowledge base of the individual. Most coders have limited experience in 1 specialty or limited to billing. I have had many "fresh" Coder's who I would hire before someone who is "self taught". Needless to say, having an individual take another exam, in my mind, is punishing the eager individual who has earned the CPC designation just as much as the "experienced coder". I have many "experienced coders" who cannot pass the CPC exam....The exam is the same for everyone therefore the earned designation should be the same. A person's resume details their experience....NO other certification or organization adds a designation to "taint" an individual.

Marion very well said!
 
Elimination of Apprentice

I don't agree and I think it's ridiculous...There's a lot of students who spent a whole year taking coding like me. I took 2 tough exams and with me being apprentice is keeping me from getting a coding job coz of lack of coding experience. How are we going to get experience if nobody gives us a chance? And now, you want us to take another exam with extra $35 more? This is absolutely not right!!
Offices should give us chances. And instead of helping us, this 'thing' is gonna make it even more harder for us to get a job and experience..smh
 
Wow!!!
After reading all of these I am really second guessing my choice of careers as a medical coder. I have spent 20+ thousand dollars and now to find out that the dream my never come true is quit depressing. Did not think it was going to be this hard to get into something after obtaining a degree. Wonder if I can ask for a refund? and to think I just received my exam study guide too.
Connie, just another newly graduated medical coder
 
Connie - I am probably going to get thrown under the bus for saying this, but first off why did you spend that much? Second, did you do any research on the field before attending school? If people would do the research they would find that it is tough out there right now for new graduates. You need to be applying for entry-level positions that will work your way into coding such as receptionist, front desk, medical records, registration, admitting, etc. And network as much as you can. It might not be fair, but that's how it is right now. I guess I'm getting kind of tired of new graduates expecting a coding job to be handed to them and didn't do any research in the field before going to school...
 
I am also one of the CPC-"A"s still in the process of testing in the Virtual Experience: Apprentice removal program (800 operative and office notes from 17 different specialities). I have been waiting for over a year to finish the testing program as last summer the program was put on hold for re-vamping. At that time I had completed close to 600 cases. I have since done the "Beta Testing" and am now waiting for the final version of the testing program so I can finish & get rid of the dreaded "A". I don't see how AAPC can drop this program as they need to up-hold their standards as a professional organization. I feel they will follow through.
No learning is wasted and I have enjoyed coding these notes but I guess I have to say I feel cheated if coding 20 notes in an exam to remove the "A" instead of the 800 we have been working on, seems unfair. That said; for my next job interview I will challenge HR to give me a coding test containing samples of their OP notes and office visits as I feel I'm up to it. I have learned so much doing this online program.
If this goes forward as now being considered, I hope AAPC will acknowledge in a meaningfull way, the effort and time those of doing the Virtual Experience: Apprentice Removal program have put in.
L. Hendrickson CPC-"A"
Lynn, I was happy to see your post in reguards to the Apprentice Program. It was a relief to see there was someone other than myself that is having this very same experience. I also, was a beta tester for the program. I was offered reimbursement when the site went down, but I am hanging in there and fighting for the program to continue because, like you, I really feel that I have learned sooo... much during this process. I think once the AAPC gets the bugs worked out of it, it will be a GREAT experience for a "new" coder. I also feel that it is a challenging program and , for those who want to per sue a job in this field, it ABSOLUTELY requires them to work through the cases as if they are working in the "real world". I think this is the way the AAPC should help those with the "A" status get through this process. I don't think making us sit and pay for another exam is the answer, we passed the CPC exam the way it was offered, and the way it was offered was not our fault. But having said that, I'm sure you would agree, there are many of us who would support future changes to the CPC exam, by adding the clinical notes, as it would test the coders understanding of the process, and it is a very positive step for the future, but something has to happen to now, for the apprentices, to make the transition. I personally would rather pay the money for a program that would prepare me for the "real world", than take another test that would give me a "Status" change, and no real experience. After just doing approximately 700 of the 800 notes, and now having been a beta tester, I feel comfortable applying to a job, and being interviewed and/or tested by a potential employer as well. I actually sent my comment to the web address offered by the AAPC, and proposed that the Apprentice Program be continued, and the changes for the future CPC test be implemented. I also asked that the AAPC should consider continuing the "A" program for those who would like to have the additional experience/education, even after the changes have been made in the future. I believe this program will give future coders VERY strong skills in the field, and recognize the AAPC as VERY,(more than it already is), reputable organization. I think it is important to recognize those of us who are working really hard to get our "A" lifted, and it should be said that even though there are some who have "high" expectations of being "given" a job, there are MANY, like you and myself, who are willing to work extremely hard, and do whatever it takes, to "work" for a job. Just hanging in there and wanting to work hard at a program, like the Apprentice Removal Program, just proves exactly that. I encourage you to post your comment on the site that the AAPC provided, if you haven't already, to help those of us get the support we strongly desire. Keep your chin up, fingers crossed, and hopefully there will be a resolution to this issue soon!
 
Leave People Alone

If someone can pass that CPC exam let them just be a CPC and leave them alone. Don't make them jump through hoops and drain their finances with another test. How ridiculous!
If you are determined enough and smart enough to pass that CPC exam congratulations to you. Let your resume speak for itself and pray that you are interviewing before a manager who will take a chance on a newbie.
Stop trying to make it so hard to get into this field! Let the passing of the CPC exam be the 1st step onto a career in coding and LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE.
 
I posted to the AAPC comments:

Having to pay for two exams and then sit for them separately, just to remove the apprentice status, seems a bit too much and unfair, compared to those who already have the alleged “experience” and are not labeled apprentice, yet who can't even pass the CPC exam.

Please continue with the “Virtual Experience: Apprentice Removal” 800 Note program. I believe this is the next best thing for those who have not been able to achieve any kind of real-world coding experience in order to remove the apprentice status. Also, I think one should have the choice of either completing this program or passing the 20 note “Clinical Exam” in order to remove the apprentice status.

However, I highly recommend adding a fill-in-the-blank section of medical records to the CPC exam similar to the CCS exam. This would be a great asset because it would show potential employers that those who pass the exam know more about coding than just choosing codes from multiple choice questions.

Nonetheless, it all comes down to the potential employer deciding if all this is good enough to hire someone as a medical coder. I seriously hope AAPC will heavily consult with as many coding employers across the country as they can to see if they will even “recognize” any of this as “coding experience” before AAPC implements any changes.

It would be futile for a member to shell out a lot of money and time towards this if an employer won't hire them because they don't acknowledge this as any kind of coding experience.​
 
I posted to the AAPC comments:

Having to pay for two exams and then sit for them separately, just to remove the apprentice status, seems a bit too much and unfair, compared to those who already have the alleged “experience” and are not labeled apprentice, yet who can't even pass the CPC exam.

Please continue with the “Virtual Experience: Apprentice Removal” 800 Note program. I believe this is the next best thing for those who have not been able to achieve any kind of real-world coding experience in order to remove the apprentice status. Also, I think one should have the choice of either completing this program or passing the 20 note “Clinical Exam” in order to remove the apprentice status.

However, I highly recommend adding a fill-in-the-blank section of medical records to the CPC exam similar to the CCS exam. This would be a great asset because it would show potential employers that those who pass the exam know more about coding than just choosing codes from multiple choice questions.

Nonetheless, it all comes down to the potential employer deciding if all this is good enough to hire someone as a medical coder. I seriously hope AAPC will heavily consult with as many coding employers across the country as they can to see if they will even “recognize” any of this as “coding experience” before AAPC implements any changes.

It would be futile for a member to shell out a lot of money and time towards this if an employer won't hire them because they don't acknowledge this as any kind of coding experience.​


Thank you semaxwell, for your support of the 800 note Apprentice Program. You are right though, I would hope the AAPC would seriously try to appeal to the employers across the country that this program really DOES provide the experience, and is very closely simmulated to the "real world"; So it could be recognized, before too many purchase it, and there is yet another issue about what is acceptable to employers as "real world" experience, and yet another debate on why someone would spend the money and not be able to gain employment.

However, I have already purchased it and had almost completed it before the site went down. But I do have to say that I don't regret this purchase, because it really opened my eyes on just how much is expected of the coder in a real world job, and I gained a great amount of information and experience that I was not going to get otherwise. I am keeping my fingers crossed that with all the feedback the AAPC has been given, they will get this program the recognition, (by potential employers, AND members) that I totally believe it deserves.

Also, I am in favor of the AAPC changing the CPC exam to include op notes, to give the credential the the status IT deserves. All in all, I think this discussion was needed to move forward, and as a CPC-A myself, I am gratefull for the opportunity to voice my concerns, along with those who are "seasoned" coders. Hopefully, there will be a resolution soon....
 
Wow!!!
After reading all of these I am really second guessing my choice of careers as a medical coder. I have spent 20+ thousand dollars and now to find out that the dream my never come true is quit depressing. Did not think it was going to be this hard to get into something after obtaining a degree. Wonder if I can ask for a refund? and to think I just received my exam study guide too.
Connie, just another newly graduated medical coder

I started out as a medical receptionist in 1986 and worked in many different specialties and that was a big help for my medical terminolgy, working with physicians and nurses everyday.

I was a "self taught coder" back in 1994 due to the fact that we lost our main coder and then to polish my skills I took one basic coding class at the community college that was $534.00 other than that I bought an anatomy book and studied that night and day to learn that by myself. I passed my CPC in 2003. What I am saying is there are cheaper ways to acheive the goals you want and I have never held anyone else responsible for me having or not having the career I want. I have never had a problem finding a coding job and I do understand that every state is different. But even after all of the years that I have been coding I still push myself to learn more and more, that is my own personal goal and not what is expected of my employer.
 
Do not punish CPC-As

I am a recent CPC-A, 12-9-2011.

I completely disagree with the parameters AAPC proposes relative to removing the "A".

1) To impose an "expiration date" on the additional exam or worst still "experience gained", in this jobless market would only punish those of us who have successfully passed the CPC exam hoping to break into the filed of coding as a viable career path on an entry level basis.

That said, I respectfully request you remove all time limits imposed, or better still grandfather CPC-As into CPCs. Our resumes can speak for themselves.

If AAPC imposes these "sanctions" on CPC-As, all my efforts, financial and otherwise, will be lost if I am unable to secure a position before the "expiration date".
Thank you,
Suzanne M. Logan, CPC-A, CPhT.
 
For what it’s worth….

There are good and bad things I think with this change.

As most of us know, AHIMA strongly recommends a person have at least 3 years worth of coding experience before they take the CCS exam. This is because the exam is no joke. I’ve talked to coders with the CCS certification and they said it was harder than the CPC exam.

So why do I mention the CCS exam?

After doing some research and talking to coders, I’ve come to the conclusion that the AAPC’s CPC certification is more like something that a new coder would get, while AHIMA’s CCS is more like something a seasoned coder would attain.

Now don’t get me wrong…. I’m not trying to put down the CPC certification because I’ve got mine as a CPC-A. What I am trying to get at is that I see the CPC as a way for a new coder to break into coding and the CCS as something a seasoned coder gets to highlight their coding career. I see the CPC-A as a way for a new coder to show that they are sincere with their dream of becoming a professional coder.

I’ll buy into making a CPC-A code 20 OP/office notes with a 90% accuracy rating if we don’t have the year’s worth of experience. This would allow those of us who are new to coding to prove what we really know. I think this could be used by the medical community as a way to allow those of us who are really good a coding, but don’t have the experience yet, to be able to break into coding without having to take a “foot in the door job” before getting into coding. I also think this will allow the brightest of us to really shine when searching for a job. Imagine how good it would look on the individual who could say that they have their CPC without having a year’s worth of experience yet.

I don’t agree making a person either have a year’s worth of experience or pass the coding of 20 OP/office notes before they can be certified as a CPC. Why not leave the CPC-A where it is with the requirement of one year’s experience or coding 20 OP/office notes with a 90% accuracy to remove the “A”? This would allow those like me the ability to at least say we are certified and ready to break into coding.

Lastly…. If everyone is looking for certified coders, how does one attain the year’s worth of coding experience before taking the CPC? Not everyone will be able to pass that extra exam, after all.

I know that most say to volunteer for the experience, but there are many like me who can’t because of financial responsibilities. So what happens to us? Does this mean we should just give up on coding? Of course not!

What this means is that those who cannot pass the extra exam or volunteer for the experience need to find some other way to get into coding. This is where that “foot in the door” job comes into effect. Having said that, I think it was the CPC-A that got me my job because it showed that I wanted to be a coder and that I was willing to “grow” into it, for lack of a better term. I think this is what the CPC-A should show. I should show that a person is ready and willing to grow into coding and not the fact that the CPC-A has no experience in coding.

My $.02 for what’s it worth.
 
Appreciate your comments and words of wisdom. I am preparing for the CPC exam, and I have been
thinking if this will be enough to get started in Medical Coding. Will this get an entry-level position? Is there any such position as "Entry-Level"?
 
Appreciate your comments and words of wisdom. I am preparing for the CPC exam, and I have been
thinking if this will be enough to get started in Medical Coding. Will this get an entry-level position? Is there any such position as "Entry-Level"?

As far as I know....

The term "entry-level" really doesn't apply to coding all that much since everyone is looking for coders with experience. Entry-level in coding is more about a "foot in the door" job like receptionist or medical records or data entry. This allows a coder to grow into the medical community and eventually into coding. I'm a CPC-A, but I had to take a job as a receptionist just to get into the medical field. I told my employer I wanted to be a coder during my interview. She said that will come in time.
 
What will happen with current CPC-A's

I have mixed emotions on the new proposal being put forth. But being a CPC-A not working in the coding field, I agree with some of the other posts about working hard to put yourself through school and study, sit for the exam and to pass the exam and still struggle for months or years to find and oppportunity to work with in the field. It is extremely frustrating, to say the least. My question is if you are currently a CPC-A, and choose to take the clinical exam and do not pass the exam and do not have a year's worth of expierence by December 2013, what happens to your designation do you loose your CPC credential altogether and have to start all over?
 
Let's all understand some basics on credentialing.

Unlike the clinical side of the house, coders are afforded choices in their credentials. We are also allowed to "specialize" in a setting early on in our careers. The CPC exam is designed for those pursuing physician-based coding; the CCS, on the other hand, is for hospital inpatient coders to demonstrate their qualification in that setting. (Yes, I realize that AHIMA indicates that it covers both outpatient hospital and inpatient hospital and while I concur to some extent, the exam was or is heavily weighted toward the inpatient side.)

That being said, I have not found evidence that supports physician practices seeking a CCS for professional fee coding. Likewise, I find that only a handful of inpatient coding jobs publicize that the CPC is an acceptable credential for that role. The reasons are very simple: a coding manager wants a candidate with credentials that match the setting in which that coder will be working. This is why both AAPC and AHIMA created the CPC-H and CCS-P, respectively--to broaden the base of certifications covered by each organization.

If you are experiencing thoughts that other certifications are necessary, then add them. However, if you are finding that all the jobs you apply for list qualifications outside your possession, then perhaps you are applying in the wrong setting. Hospitals are not the only places that coders may work--thus the need to have physician, payer and many other credentials. I do not consider the CPC as an entry-level certification and I believe most of my peers would express similar feelings.
 
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That is a good question. I have recently received my CPC-A. I can't find a position due to lack of experience. Not only do I have to fund my own training for the ICD-10 change, which is completely unaffordable, now I have the worry of losing everything I worked for because of the changes they are talking about now. I also have a huge loan hanging over my head for school. I feel sick with "what a big mistake I made?" I would love an opportunity to prove myself, but apparently that is not to be. I find this so frustrating. I really thought I would enjoy this field. It is not easy, but that is part of what I enjoyed about it.
 
Very nicely said, Kevin!!! KUDOs for another great explanation!

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding with some people in what the basics for each credential means. You, hopefully, cleared up some of that confusion!
 
The 80 hrs of classroom and 1 yr exp. to lift "A"

The initial (current), requirements of ways to get your "A" removed stated that you have to have 2 years experience OR 80 hrs classroom plus 1 year experience on the job. I actually completely forgot that the 80 hrs of classroom, through an accredited school, was considered 1 of the years of experience needed. I was recently e-mailing my previous proffessor where I received my certification for the Medical Billing and Coding program, and she reminded me of this. I wanted to see if anyone could tell me what the other year of "on-the-job experience" should consist of?? Does it have to be a job specifically in coding, or can the experience be ANY job in the medical office? For example, would clinical experience, patient scheduling, receptionist, and medical insurance, be considered the experience needed for that 1 year plus the 80 hrs of schoolwork?? I am just wondering, because ALL of these particular jobs have been mentioned as "foot-in-the-door" jobs that could lead to a possible coding position?
 
Consider a new grad who has school loans.
AAPC membership $125
CPC test $300
Coding books $165 (approx)
totaling $590.00
PLUS
Clinical exam coding 20 operative/office notes price unknown

ALSO like one of the previous post, I too am a registered nurse, and with passing the state board exam was allowed to take care of sick people.

I found the CPC exam challenging, and feel passing it should allow you to practice as a full CPC. Let employers decide if they want experience or not.

Thank you for the opportunity to voice my opinion.
 
The initial (current), requirements of ways to get your "A" removed stated that you have to have 2 years experience OR 80 hrs classroom plus 1 year experience on the job. I actually completely forgot that the 80 hrs of classroom, through an accredited school, was considered 1 of the years of experience needed. I was recently e-mailing my previous proffessor where I received my certification for the Medical Billing and Coding program, and she reminded me of this. I wanted to see if anyone could tell me what the other year of "on-the-job experience" should consist of?? Does it have to be a job specifically in coding, or can the experience be ANY job in the medical office? For example, would clinical experience, patient scheduling, receptionist, and medical insurance, be considered the experience needed for that 1 year plus the 80 hrs of schoolwork?? I am just wondering, because ALL of these particular jobs have been mentioned as "foot-in-the-door" jobs that could lead to a possible coding position?

Hi,

I am pretty certian that the other year has to be in the area of coding, however, it can be done in any speciality that you choose.

Hope that Helps!

Christina, CPC
 
Removal of Apprentice

I hope I understand this correctly. Since I am a CPC-A right now, all I need is a year of experience and a letter from my employer stating that fact or do I still need 2 years of experience and 2 letters, one from the employer and one from a co worker. I am going by removal of A guidelines listed on the AAPC site. Any info would be most appreciated.
Thanks
 
I hope I understand this correctly. Since I am a CPC-A right now, all I need is a year of experience and a letter from my employer stating that fact or do I still need 2 years of experience and 2 letters, one from the employer and one from a co worker. I am going by removal of A guidelines listed on the AAPC site. Any info would be most appreciated.
Thanks

Currently there is no change in what it takes to remove the A from your credential. There is a proposal being discussed to allow further testing to replace part of the requirement, but it is not yet official. So as of now, you still need either two years experience validated by an employer or 80 hours of classroom work and one year experience.
 
I found the CPC exam challenging, and feel passing it should allow you to practice as a full CPC. Let employers decide if they want experience or not.

You are absolutely correct, and most employers consider experience very carefully when interviewing candidates for coding jobs. But remember......this whole initiative is coming down from the AAPC, who currently provides a credential to people who may (or may not) have taken a community-college course in billing or coding, who may never have set foot into a physician's billing office, and who have been, over the past few years, communicating to the AAPC that they feel they have been ripped off because they have this credential, but are unable to find work. The AAPC recognizes that it is not the apprentice designation, per se, that's holding the new coders back, but the lack of experience and practical, hands on knowledge.

As a hiring manager, I can tell you that simply being able to "code" is only a small part of the picture for the coders that I supervise. I think that's a huge misconception on the part of coding apprentices. It's not just about being able to look up a diagnosis or CPT code. It's about understanding the various payer rules, being able to sort out CCI edits, knowing how to navigate the CMS website, understanding healthcare law, being able to communicate with physicians, understanding EOBs and knowing what questions to ask to decipher denials. It's about being in the middle of the revenue cycle and considering the many, many variations that our multiple-payer system imposes upon us with each claim we bill out. I could go on, but I think I've made my point. It's not the apprentice designation that is the issue....it's about having sufficient knowledge to do the day-to-day work so that hiring managers and existing staff can trust that any coder's work will be accurate and compliant. That's why I strongly believe, and have communicated to the AAPC, that there should be a two-year (at least) experience requirement in order to sit for the CPC examination.
 
Hi,

I am pretty certian that the other year has to be in the area of coding, however, it can be done in any speciality that you choose.

Hope that Helps!

Christina, CPC

Christina, Thank you for your reply. That is what I thought, I just needed to clarify that I was understanding it correctly. Also, I had one more question you might be able to answer for me... What if someone has MORE than the 80hrs of classroom required? Does it count for anything?? Just curious... I guess when I first completed the classes and took a job as a Medical Assistant, I didn't ask these questions because I was hoping to get the experience needed on the job....

Christine
 
You are absolutely correct, and most employers consider experience very carefully when interviewing candidates for coding jobs. But remember......this whole initiative is coming down from the AAPC, who currently provides a credential to people who may (or may not) have taken a community-college course in billing or coding, who may never have set foot into a physician's billing office, and who have been, over the past few years, communicating to the AAPC that they feel they have been ripped off because they have this credential, but are unable to find work. The AAPC recognizes that it is not the apprentice designation, per se, that's holding the new coders back, but the lack of experience and practical, hands on knowledge.

As a hiring manager, I can tell you that simply being able to "code" is only a small part of the picture for the coders that I supervise. I think that's a huge misconception on the part of coding apprentices. It's not just about being able to look up a diagnosis or CPT code. It's about understanding the various payer rules, being able to sort out CCI edits, knowing how to navigate the CMS website, understanding healthcare law, being able to communicate with physicians, understanding EOBs and knowing what questions to ask to decipher denials. It's about being in the middle of the revenue cycle and considering the many, many variations that our multiple-payer system imposes upon us with each claim we bill out. I could go on, but I think I've made my point. It's not the apprentice designation that is the issue....it's about having sufficient knowledge to do the day-to-day work so that hiring managers and existing staff can trust that any coder's work will be accurate and compliant. That's why I strongly believe, and have communicated to the AAPC, that there should be a two-year (at least) experience requirement in order to sit for the CPC examination.

How does a new coder obtain this experience when it is not in the coding classes? It is obtained with on the job training and experience. How is a new coder suppose to get this?
 
Elimination of A

I hear yeah Sis...Tell them.. ;)


None of this really makes ANY sense to me. I graduated from an AAPC- approved 1 yr. rigorous coding school 1 yr. ago. At the same time, I was/am pursuing an A.S. degree in Health Information Technology (will graduate in May and then take the RHIT exam). I passed the AAPC certification exam as a CPC-A. I have been very diligent trying to get any experience to get rid of the "A" on the end. I have tried to participate in the Apprentice program that AAPC offers, with the closest office being 45 minutes away from me and they had nothing available for me. My question to ALL seasoned coders, hiring managers, etc.. is how do we gain experience (and therefore get rid of the "A" on our credential) if no one is willing to hire non-experienced coders??? You can't get experience if you don't have any experience!!! It is highly FRUSTRATING!!!!! Passing the CPC exam was grueling in and of its self only to be "awarded" with a credential that means nothing...and even less than nothing if you have the scarlet "A' attached. Woopee, now I get to pay more money, and take yet another test to get rid of the "A".....and guess what, still no experience, so still NO JOB!!!!!

I am highly-motivated and generally possess a positive attitude, but this whole thing really rubs me the wrong way!!! Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!! Happy New Year!!
:confused::mad::(
 
How does a new coder obtain this experience when it is not in the coding classes? It is obtained with on the job training and experience. How is a new coder suppose to get this?

Revenue cycle, payer guidelines, CCI Edits, Healthcare law, communication skills, and denial management are all skills and concepts that can be replicated in a virtual office "lab" and taught in the community college level. What I'm seeing with entry-level coders are a whole lot of really earnest people who know how to look things up in the CPT and ICD-9 books, have a general understanding of medical terminology but don't know what the word "adjudicated" means, and who don't know how to use the CCI edits. It's just as frustrating to me as it is to people trying to get hired.

Whose fault is that? Good question. The school, for not providing a comprehensive education? And for the 20K I've read that people are plunking down for this opportunity, I sure hope they got some of this training. Or do we blame the students for not researching coding job descriptions in advance of selecting coding coursework?

But the bottom line is that without that knowledge, lately (with a bad economy and a strict budget) it's hard for me to bring anyone on that is going to require a lot of additional training outside the new-employee training like multiple software applications, company policies, and Joint Commission requirements.
 
Ms. Brooks,

My name is Christine, and I would like to say that I have been following this post for a while now, and I have also posted a few comments as well, and I have been taking in everything you have said about this issue. I want to say that I admire the fact that you are trying to explain to the CPC-A's, myself included, just how much more is involved to becoming a certified coder. I totally understand your point of view, and I also appreciate the fact that you are seeing our frustrations as well. I would like to know what you think should be done to help the apprentices that are "Stuck in limbo", and are willing to do whatever it takes to get the "A" removed? Do you think we should sit for another test that just shows we have the ability to find the codes in the CPT and ICD-9 manuals? I don't know if you have seen any of the things I have posted, I'm sure you have though, and I was wondering how you feel about the Apprentice Removal Program that AAPC has attempted to implement?? I am just curious to what your opinion might be?
 
. . . That's why I strongly believe, and have communicated to the AAPC, that there should be a two-year (at least) experience requirement in order to sit for the CPC examination.

That sounds like a good idea, AHIMA set up the CCS exam that way as well.

However, if AAPC goes that route, than they need to switch things.
For those that are not able to achieve the two-year experience (coding that is), then you must EITHER pass the 20 note Clinical Exam or complete the 800 note Virtual Experience program BEFORE you can sit for the CPC exam.

If you are still unable to achieve a job (paid or not paid) that would allow you any kind of “coding experience” 12 months after passing the exam, then you should be able to EITHER retake a new 20 note Clinical Exam or complete another new 800 note Virtual Experience program. Since it appears that the Project Xtern is unfortunately not as widely available across the country, this seems the best route. I would hope this would show potential employers your dedication and persistence even if you lack "real-world experience".

As for other kinds of "experience", your resume should show that you have that. As Pam had stated in a previous post, there are many other types of experiences, besides just coding, that are involved in this industry. Read the job description carefully. IMO, if just extracting and looking up codes are at least 80% of the duties, than I believe the above mentioned should suffice as experience? ;)
 
Currently there is no change in what it takes to remove the A from your credential. There is a proposal being discussed to allow further testing to replace part of the requirement, but it is not yet official. So as of now, you still need either two years experience validated by an employer or 80 hours of classroom work and one year experience.

Thanks, that helps
 
Ms. Brooks,

My name is Christine, and I would like to say that I have been following this post for a while now, and I have also posted a few comments as well, and I have been taking in everything you have said about this issue. I want to say that I admire the fact that you are trying to explain to the CPC-A's, myself included, just how much more is involved to becoming a certified coder. I totally understand your point of view, and I also appreciate the fact that you are seeing our frustrations as well. I would like to know what you think should be done to help the apprentices that are "Stuck in limbo", and are willing to do whatever it takes to get the "A" removed? Do you think we should sit for another test that just shows we have the ability to find the codes in the CPT and ICD-9 manuals? I don't know if you have seen any of the things I have posted, I'm sure you have though, and I was wondering how you feel about the Apprentice Removal Program that AAPC has attempted to implement?? I am just curious to what your opinion might be?

Hi, Christine. Thank you for your comments.

There are many, many frustrations here. Even as recently as six or seven years ago, I would have given my right arm to have some entry level coders to help with the manual charge entry, filing, and administrative tasks, while they learned the ins and outs of coding and billing. With the rapid changes that my facility has seen...EHR, automatic coding/charge capture, paperless office, etc., I have so much less need for entry level staff that I can't even provide much of an opportunity for anyone who has less than a couple of years coding/billing experience. While all this was happening, the coding schools (and the AAPC) weren't quite paying attention, and provided me and other hiring managers with a great group of people that I can't reasonably employ! It's a major catch-22. The only suggestions I can make are repeats of the ones I've been listing for months....get your feet wet however you can.....front desk, registration, payment posting, customer service, or even dietary, housekeeping, and administrative assistant.

Personally, I'm not sure what an additional test would prove, unless it included some of the topics I outlined above, such as revenue cycle knowledge and denial management strategies. But that's not easily measurable in a multiple-choice test, so I see it as having to be an essay or presentation project. Imagine the AAPC having to manage that kind of examination venue, with 30,000 apprentice coders wanting that kind of opportunity? It boggles my mind, and certainly would be a logistics nightmare. It's not that I don't sympathize, but my loyalty lies with my employer, who trusts me to hire the very best people for the job, with the best return on investment. And these days I need experienced coders, that can hit the ground running. To hire an inexperienced (although willing) apprentice would be a bad business move. And after all, healthcare is a big, big business.
 
Hi, Christine. Thank you for your comments.

There are many, many frustrations here. Even as recently as six or seven years ago, I would have given my right arm to have some entry level coders to help with the manual charge entry, filing, and administrative tasks, while they learned the ins and outs of coding and billing. With the rapid changes that my facility has seen...EHR, automatic coding/charge capture, paperless office, etc., I have so much less need for entry level staff that I can't even provide much of an opportunity for anyone who has less than a couple of years coding/billing experience. While all this was happening, the coding schools (and the AAPC) weren't quite paying attention, and provided me and other hiring managers with a great group of people that I can't reasonably employ! It's a major catch-22. The only suggestions I can make are repeats of the ones I've been listing for months....get your feet wet however you can.....front desk, registration, payment posting, customer service, or even dietary, housekeeping, and administrative assistant.

Personally, I'm not sure what an additional test would prove, unless it included some of the topics I outlined above, such as revenue cycle knowledge and denial management strategies. But that's not easily measurable in a multiple-choice test, so I see it as having to be an essay or presentation project. Imagine the AAPC having to manage that kind of examination venue, with 30,000 apprentice coders wanting that kind of opportunity? It boggles my mind, and certainly would be a logistics nightmare. It's not that I don't sympathize, but my loyalty lies with my employer, who trusts me to hire the very best people for the job, with the best return on investment. And these days I need experienced coders, that can hit the ground running. To hire an inexperienced (although willing) apprentice would be a bad business move. And after all, healthcare is a big, big business.


Thank you Pam for your reply. Believe it or not, I appreciate your honesty about the reality of the healthcare industry, and how it has grown. I just wonder what can be done to get the word out to the colleges/technical schools to get them to maybe offer some detailed courses on the topics you mentioned above? Do you think that might be something that would help to get the new coders a better understanding of the "real world" job?? Or maybe get the word to them, that an apprentice program at the college level is needed? I just wonder...

I know all about the "hit the ground running" issue. I actually took a job in a medical office in 2010, just a few months after I passed the CPC exam. It was a position as a Medical Assistant. I had absolutely NO prior experience in a medical office, and definately none as a MA, I had to "learn on the job", "hit the ground running"! I was able to obtain this job by basically going around town passing out my resume, talking to the people in the doctors' offices, and fell into it. The doctor was a teaching physician so I suppose that is why she was able to hire someone like me?? Although it was a GREAT experience, it was not meant to be. I worked for 14 months before they replaced me with a nursing student. Although I was quite upset at the time, I completely understood giving someone who was going to nursing school the opportunity. I am very greatfull for the experience that I received during my time there. Although my duties were mostly clinical, I did do some front desk work,(verifying insur., pt scheduling, A/R posts, etc.), and quite a bit of managing pt records in the EMR. So, I do have some understanding of how the medical office works, it just didn't lead to the Billing/Coding job I was hoping for. I know I have much, much, more learning to do, and I plan on learnig as long as I can, I just wish I could get the chance to prove myself. I am definately NOT below taking a job, whatever it may be, I was kind of a "nurse" for a while, and I was actually good at it, who knew?

Anyway, I am sorry to be so long winded, but I am trying very hard to help, in any way I can, to find a solution to this issue for myself, as well as the other CPC-A's, who are willing to work for the recognition to a potential employer. I also realize the economy being what it is, is not helping in this situation. So, I am going to a chapter meeting tomorrow for my FIRST time. I am going to try the "face-to-face" networking, you never know what can come of it??!

Thanks again, and any information/advice you can offer is greatly appreciated!!
 
Cpc

I just got my "A" removed the old fashioned way by going to school and getting my year of experience. I was very fortunate to be hired 6 months after I graduated as a coder for a multi-specialty clinic. I would be very frustrated if I already passed the CPC and I was working as a coder, but didn't have a full year under my belt and had to take the additional exam. Good luck to all the newbies on the new exam!!
 
Lori CPC-A

I think this is just another way to squeeze more money form hard working people. I took the coding course after becoming unemployed with 30+ years of medical office, I had done everything possible in the medical office except the coding piece. So why not, it was the most difficult and stessful test I have ever taken and most people will agree with me. I don't see the need for the A at all. Every position is different and you will always learn as you go along. I did land a job in another medical facility, not in the coding or billing for that matter, (Clinical Clerk) As it stands now,none of the people working in billing are certified and as of Jan.1, the department is being replaced with our EMR provider. So, so much for advancement in this company!

:eek:
 
I worked hard to pass the CPC exam. I passed it the first time while my friends who already had medical jobs didn't even pass it on the second time and just gave up. They still had a job and all I have is that stupid A. I don't have any on the job training and have tried the project xternship program and have gotten nowhere. I also want to know from all the hiring managers how I am supposed to get a job, any medical job coding or not, if no one will give me a chance. When I talked to the AAPC about doing the exam to get my A off, they said that I could but truthfully employers don't look at that as field work it is still just book work!
 
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